Last week my son and daughter went with a group to a local wildlife ranch. Deer, mountain lions, beavers, peacocks and a host of assorted critters were there in close proximity to my children. Landon found out the hard ways that there were also some bees. Yep, my lil’ fella took a stinger on the finger after he, admittedly, stirred one up by swatting at it. He lost the battle but won the war as the bee, after depositing its stinger in my boy, left earth for that great hive in the sky. Not wanting to be outdone by my son, I’d like to stir up a nest of my own out there today.
When it comes to God, how sovereign is sovereign? In pastoral ministry I’ve run into three main groupings in which people seem to fall. Here they are:
1. God is absolutely in control of everything and there is no detail in which He is not sovereignly ruling in an ordaining, initiating and completing capacity.
2. God is sovereign in that He has begun all things and will consummate them in the end, but has now fully withdrawn, leaving the present ins and outs of life on earth to mankind.
3. God is sovereign in all things but is only occasionally involved in a direct capacity, choosing at times to personally involve Himself in the affairs of mankind.
Now, whether or not you are formally trained in theology, you likely have some inclination to a certain train of thought about this issue. Is God in absolute control when a Norwegian murderer kills above 90 people? Is God sovereign over the child with cancer? Is He merely in control when there is a miraculous healing, an endowment of money during crisis or an amazing delivery during an accident? What are your thoughts on this? Any good Calvinist who regularly reads my words or hears me preach would politely tell you that I would make a lousy Calvinist. Those who are not reformed in their thinking have sometimes been afraid of my commitment to the doctrines revolving around the sovereignty of God, feeling that I’m a closet Presbyterian more so than a hyper-evangelistic Baptist (as if you had only those two choices available). I’ve never been a good fit in either camp but there is one thing I will say with no retreat: If God is not in control of everything then someone or something greater than Him must exist in the universe or beyond which is in control of the things which He does not control. That’s a scary thought. No, that’s heresy.
Believing the bees’ nest to be sufficiently stirred…what is your thought on the matter? Let us act like grown-up’s as we dialogue please 🙂
This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart (I’m behind in reading and replying to the post — sorry.) and one that I am passionate about. I believe that God is God — absolutely Sovereign and unlimited by anything. I believe that He excercises His sovereignty in wisdom and perfect understanding for His glory and our good and that it is couched in His love. God is not a little bit Sovereign as long as He has our permission — He is totally Sovereign. I do not know that we have unlimited “free will” (still searching scriptures on that and I just don’t see it in there) that is excercised apart from His sovereignty. However, we are granted the ability and responsibility to make “choices” for which we are accountable but that ability and responsibility in no way limits God’s sovereignty but is limited by His sovereignty. How can this be? It seems contradictory. How “fair” is that? Well, I can not explain God or how it all works, it just is. God’s word tells us that God’s works are perfect and that He is fair and just in all that He does, therefore while my mind may not be able to make complete sense of it, that doesn’t change the fact that if God does it, set it up, works it out (however you want to phrase it) it is fair and just and right. Human logic and understanding is so very limited compared to God’s whose is perfect. Where does this leave me? Well, the sovereignty of God does not leave me “off the hook”. I have the responsibility to seek God’s wisdom and truth and to make choices and I will be held accountable fore those choices (that’s my part and God has made that clear in His word) but I can rest in the fact that God has plans and purposes and He is the King of kings, LORD of Lords, God of gods with all power, wisdom, knowledge and will to work those plans and purposes out and that He is doing so to His glory which is always to my good and that He loves those I love and is intimately concerned with them and all my concerns and that the world is not out of His control and that things are proceeding as He deems necessary (however much I may not get it) and that even so evil is not excused or justified but it is a tool in His hands that would be crushed instantaneously should God deem it best. Ultimately, I must trust God with all of this and rest by faith in Him and His wisdom. We have a VERY BIG GOD who is more than we can fully know or understand or explain. I like that! (P.S. I read your post on our having a Big God…TRUE!!!!)
Bless you! Debbie
Good Evening,
‘I am only commenting on the bee sting. I know how he feels. I was bitten 5 or 6 times a few weeks ago just because they didn’t like where I was mowing.
I put Clorox on the stings. And it helps.
Have a good evening.
Mary
I believe that when God gave us the choice to do good or evil, to accept His will or follow our own, He did so at the willful expense of His own ability to be in control of our lives without our invitation. That’s not to say God *can’t* know what I’m going to do one hour from now. It’s to say He, in His infinite capacity to keep His word, allows us to follow our own path even if it isn’t the path He laid out for us. He knows everything that’s out there ahead of us, good and bad. He knows everything we are capable of, good and bad.
However, if the Gospels teach us nothing else, they show that He seems to have blinded Himself to what our choices will be despite His desire for us to aim those choices at an eternal life with Him. This does not clash with the notion of God’s sovereignty. Indeed, it reinforces it. The level of self-control it must take to have the innate ability to know what we will do every step of the way before we do it and not access and act upon that is quite simply incomprehensible on any level. Yet this is what our Father does in order to keep His promise to us. That is sovereignty by any read of any dictionary.
Michael, thanks for offering a differing point of view into the stream. I applaud your commitment to God’s omniscience but I’m afraid that the argument you’ve left us to read lacks scriptural support. If I’m hearing you right, it sounds like the oft-spoken historical conclusion that God has woven into His attribute of sovereignty a place where man’s decisions or actions actually preclude God’s own desires. In these instances, God is sovereign but has made Himself powerless to intervene (?). It is possible that I’m ignorant of or unfamiliar with the scripture you would use to support your thoughts – could you share some of the passages you use to formulate these well-expressed opinions on this topic?
Jeff, all the way through the Bible we see numerous references to the act of sin which causes the state of sin (a separation from God’s blessings). You ask if I’m saying that “God has woven into His attribute of sovereignty a place where man’s decisions or actions actually preclude God’s own desires” and I’m saying yes. Otherwise, we would not be able to sin, He would never have a reason to be angry or disappointed with us and (this is a real big one) there would be no reason for salvation because we never would have strayed in the garden.
You also ask if I have Biblical backing to my presentation. Yes I do. It’s the entire bible from start to finish. If we are looking for specifics, we can access any passage wherein God takes punitive or redemptive action with us. Anywhere His word speaks of sin, the times Jesus rebuked Peter or the time He overturned the tables in the temple. Anger and disappointment naturaqlly denote that something didn’t go the way it was planned.
Finally, we can look at John 3:12-18. In these passages we are clearly given an option and warned against passing on it just as you do when you offer an invitation in your service. This would never be necessary if the outcome were already decided or at least foreseen. On the other hand, our statement of love would be meaningless if we had no other option. When your children say, “I love you Daddy.” it only has its tremendous value because the awful specter of their saying, “I hate you” exists.
It is important to understand that God is not powerless in any way nor is He absent. I have never said that. But he has given us enough room to make our own decisions and He has also let us know that He will be there to take the controls when we finally come to our senses and ask Him in.
Michael, I see by your answer that we have two distinct ways of thinking on the issue, primarily when it comes to how God is glorified in the ultimate punishment of sin and therefore how He is sovereign over the creation of sinners and allowance of their wickedness. I encourage you to make a careful study of Romans 9, particularly verses 14-23 which addresses your statement that God could never have reason to be angry or disappointed with us when we sin. These are deep waters and I’m being careful to try not to slip in and drown in a flippant, tidy approach to these truths. The fact of the matter is that the Potter cannot be charged with wrongdoing for creating vessels of destruction from His own clay. No matter which way we look at it, His hands always own the lump, no matter what He forms from it.
In the end we both agree in the salvation offered to us at the cross. I will always believe accepting that salvation, walking in God’s word and living a life that points to Jesus Christ are all choices we make (or not). The Calvinist position of preordained destiny falls completely apart in the face of John 3:16, Matthew 28:18-20 and Acts1:8 just to name a tine few passages. I could be wrong and if I am I will know in the end. But until then I will never let go of the belief that everyone has a shot at redemption. Otherwise, I have to accept that my unsaved siblings may well have been placed here to live through the unreasonable trials and tribulations of this life only to have hell waiting for them no matter what decisions they made. I have to also come to terms with the ugly fact that my own salvation is little more than a rash assumption that may or may not be true and I will only find out what awaits me on my final day. That’s not the plan of a loving God. I have too duck out and get back to work Jeff. This has been quite stimulating and I would love to continue it sometime in person. In the meantime, I’ll say that you are a sensational writer and my wife and I are inspired by the way you and your family are holding up under the withering weigh of the tragedy you have had to face. It’s a picture of Gods grace. Take care mate.
Mike, thanks again for the input. I do not consider myself a Calvinist because the doctrines of grace preceded Calvin. The issue is that some Calvinists and Arminians err by believing that one side of the issue does away with the other. It is impossible to do a careful study of Scripture and dismiss the doctrines of election and predestination. It is also impossible to study scripture without clearly seeing that man decides/chooses/wills and is accountable for this decision. Humility demands that we believe both even while we cannot fully comprehend or explain both. In the end, all of the glory must be God’s and none going to man. We therefore should be very careful in taking any semblance of credit when it comes to our justification. If you will take some time and listen to my exposition on the Book of Ephesians, it may serve to assist you in a more accurate expression of your clearly sincere praise of God for so great salvation. Thanks for dialoging!
Ephesians sermons: https://meadowbaptist.com/content.cfm?id=2029
It has taken me a long time to come to the conclusion that NOTHING is a surprise to God.
He is in control. Sometimes I have wondered (in my sinful mind) WHY? WHY Why???? did you allow this to happen?. I finally have come to the conclusion that He is Sovereign and in control. What a blessing to bask in that presence and assurance with each breath I take…someday we will know why OR it will NOT matter to find out WHy! I thank him daily that He has given me such comfort.
I agree that your Dad hit the nail on the head. In the book (I know many do not like it because it is not doctrine or true Bible teaching) “The Shack”, it deals with the concept of good/evil, God’s place in the world and how we could never begin to ‘judge’ any situation as good or bad with our limited knowledge and perspective. Only by being in a familial relationship with God can we begin to grasp what/who/how he is and that only cracks the door for our understanding of His sovereignty. I feel like I’m about to talk my way into areas that I’m ill equipped or in circles so I’ll shut up and read what others post!
I think your jumping off point should have been a wee-bit earlier when you began to reference “The Shack”!
I knew you’d go there! Just never know how those bees might move about!!
I read ‘the shack’ also and learned the same lesson from it. The main character is angry about what happened to his child and desires to take matters of vengence or retribution into his own hands. In other words he thinks he knows how to handle things better than God. He realized he was wanting to put himself in control rather than letting our sovereign God take care of the situation.
Put me in the #1 category… then read Romans 9, Jeremiah 1, Ephesians 1-2, Job 38-42:6, John 10:11-30… and the list goes on 🙂 Actually, I must admit, it has never occurred to me otherwise – from a child I was taught about the omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence of God… what else could He be but sovereign over all? As He told Moses “I AM”…
I’m a #1’er myself. I would only wish to state that clearly there are aspects contained within my position that are not explained in a tidy fashion which would allow me to agree with Dad’s reply which serves to remind us of the need for humility when dealing with such an immense aspect of God.
Agreed, Humility is also a must when yielding to the sovereignty of God. To admit His sovereignty is to admit your own inabilities and forfeit any rights of boasting. And, I too, am glad that My God doesn’t fit into a box of human reason! Hallelujah!
I think there’s a fourth possibility. The fourth is that the other three are all flawed in some way because mortal men are dealing with an infinite Being with finite minds. In other words, we are ill-equipped for the subject of God’s sovereignty and so our conclusions about Him are suspect unless He has already been specific about the truth of the matter. He has told us that His ways and thoughts are not ours and that He is the Great I AM. These are somewhat vague terms to us but I think He is telling us that we will never figure Him out. While I agree that God is sovereign and I’m not, I’m not sure I know what all that entails. And I like it that way! Any God that I can fit into my theological box is too small. I think it’s possible that God is a combination of all three of the offered options. Our logical minds, of course, object to seemingly mutually exclusive conditions existing at the same time. But, hey! Wouldn’t that be just like the Great I AM? And when you are sovereign, you can pull it off…or can you?
Hey, pops, its not fair that you give the best possible reply as the very first reply. Now the rest of us are ruined for the discussion. What’s up with that?
Best? Maybe it’s the worst since I had to use my finite mind to come up with it. Give Amy and the kids a hug for me, please.